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on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex

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discusses his email correspondence with

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dr. Sam Harris I mean here he is

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equating in de research to sy research

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now the only person that would do

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something like that is someone who knows

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very little about each I like when

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little nuggets of truth like this are

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revealed because if we just listen to

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Sam Harris's public stance on SCI on

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parapsychology on Rupert Sheldrake Dean

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Radin it's all very open very

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collaborative very go boys let's see

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what you got I'm not against it but when

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you read this you see what he really

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thinks about SCI research it's in the

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backwater of science that's where it

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really is force and stay with us for

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welcome to skeptic oh where we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers thinkers and their critics

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I'm your host Aleksic Harrison on this

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episode of skeptic oh I want to wrap up

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and add a couple of post grips to dr.

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Evan Alexander's new book proof of

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heaven which chronicles his near-death

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experience now I know we've spent quite

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a bit of time on this actually the last

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three episodes have talked about

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near-death experience science in the way

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that a theists and skeptics approach

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that science so please if you haven't

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heard those it might add some context

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for you to go back and listen to those

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before you listen to this but I did want

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to share with you a couple of email

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exchanges that I've had since those

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shows because I think you'll find them

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very interesting and because as I've

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often said on this show I think it takes

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two or three rounds a lot of times to

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get to the real heart of some of these

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issues so I want to start with Sam

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Harris whose blog posts we featured in

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episode 189 now just as a recap many of

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you I'm sure know Sam Harris is the

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author of a book that really started

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this whole or new atheist and we're

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smarter than everybody else

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thing and since then Sam Harris has

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really been able to maintain this kind

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of intellectual and scientific

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respectability that's somehow been above

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the fray of the Richard Dawkins atheist

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kind of in the street thing at least

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that's my take on where he fits so I

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think a lot of people were surprised at

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dr. Sam Harris's rather unprofessional

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attack on dr. Evan Alexander which we

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chronicled in episode 189 and I think

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what was most telling for people was

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just as I laid it out that if you're

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gonna slam this guy debate him if you

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got the goods like you say you do then

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go out in the court of public opinion

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and deliver what you have but

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do these little drive-bys and claim that

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you know everything but I'm really

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getting ahead of myself because as

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you'll hear in this email exchange that

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I had with dr. Harris he's a lot more

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like those fundamentalist atheists than

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he likes to let on so here then is what

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happened I published as I just said

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episode 189 titled Sam Harris won't

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debate dr. Evan Alexander on near-death

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experience science so the first thing I

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have to tell you is before I even had a

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chance to send dr. Harris a link to the

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podcast it must have been less than an

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hour after I published I got an email

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from him and he responded to me with

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this email Alex please publish this in

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full which I'm gonna do so I'm the

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website I'm gonna publish the full email

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exchange but I want to hit on some of

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the highlights here in this podcast so

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continuing after publish this in full

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he points out a few things quote-unquote

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I should realize one the distinction

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between neuroscientists and neurosurgeon

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is real and important okay so this is a

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topic that came up in our prior email

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exchange and now he's trying to support

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this argument some neurosurgeons are

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neuroscientist but that doesn't appear

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to be the case with Alexander more

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importantly he's not thinking like a

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neuroscientist at all he says

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parenthetically he continues the result

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is about as bad as if I were handed a

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drill and scalpel and told to operate on

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a living person's brain okay let me stop

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right there now come on is this kind of

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over-the-top arrogance really convincing

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are you buying any of this do you really

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think sam harris has some secret special

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knowledge that he's learned as an

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unpublished non practicing

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neuroscientist I mean isn't that kind of

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silly just go read the guy's book again

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something that sam Harris seems quite

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proud of the fact that he hasn't done or

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go to his website look at his curriculum

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Vita it's obvious that he has the

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qualifications the brains the knowledge

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to speak with authority on these issues

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of course he knows neuroscience of

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course he knows neuroanatomy he taught

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at Harvard Medical School for

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fifteen years if dr. sam harris really

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wants to push this point he's gotta back

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it up because on the surface of it no

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one's gonna buy that no one we've done

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the podcast we've published it I've

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gotten the response no one is buying

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your argument that Evan Alexander's

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qualifications don't stack up that he's

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not an expert no one's buying it let it

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go but wait there's another point he

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makes in this email he says by relying

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on bad science in the way that you are

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meaning me and labeling criticism as a

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symptom of arrogance or atheist

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fundamentalism which I probably did you

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are actually doing a lot of harm to your

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cause this is the interesting part you

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apparently have no idea how foolish you

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sound in your most recent podcast unlike

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most of my fellow scientists and

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skeptics I happen to be sympathetic to

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the aims of SCI research but now even I

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will have nothing to do with you so nice

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work you just made the backwater of SCI

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even less accessible to serious people

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now that's actually very interesting and

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very revealing I mean here he is

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equating NDE research to psy research

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now the only person that would do

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something like that is someone who knows

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very little about each I mean we know

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that psy researchers Dean Radin Rupert

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Sheldrake they're studying ESP

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clairvoyance telekinesis those kind of

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things psy phenomena there's no overlap

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with near-death experience the

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near-death experience researchers were

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talking about our pin bomb lama

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cardiologist 20-year study in the

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netherlands jeff long radiologist in a

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hospital studying cases jan holden Bruce

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Greyson at the University of Virginia

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for him to confuse psy research in NDE

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research is very telling as to the

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extent that he understands either one of

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these topics and the other thing that's

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very revealing about that quote

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this when he says you just made the

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backwater of Sai

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even less accessible to serious people

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now despite what some of you think I

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really don't like confrontation but you

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know what I do like I like knowing the

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truth I like when little nuggets of

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truth like this are revealed because if

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we just listen to Sam Harris's public

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stance on SCI on parapsychology on

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Rupert Sheldrake Dean Radin it's all

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very open very collaborative very go

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boys let's see what you got I'm not

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against it but when you read this you

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see what he really thinks about SCI

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research it's in the backwater of

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science that's where it really is force

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and understanding that revealing that

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makes it worth going through this

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confrontation so back to the email

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here's what I wrote back to Sam Sam I'm

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not exactly sure what you expect me to

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do with your response I guess I could

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publish it along with my commentary

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maybe well it turns out that's what I am

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doing or post it on the forum probably

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but I really don't understand why you

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continue to shy away from a debate

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moreover your continued insistence that

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you own the only opinion that matters

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ie there's nothing to debate is really

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not going to play well I mean who's

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gonna buy that I will however drill into

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your response

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I think Alexander might have something

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to say about how his neuroscience

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qualifications stack up against yours

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and I did go ahead and forward that

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email to dr. Alexander and then I got

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the response that y'all saw in episode

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189 but this email exchange continues

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dr. Harris wrote me back

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this isn't about credentials he writes

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funny that seemed to be what he was

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saying when there's this big difference

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between a neuroscientist and a

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neurosurgeon seemed to be about

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credentials then but now it's not about

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credentials the fact that you would

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interpret my stated reasons for not

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debating Alexander is deceptive he goes

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on to say I may very well debate him at

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some point but it won't be on your

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podcast so I wrote back them I tried

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ignore all the personal attacks so

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here's what I wrote back Sam the one

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thing that continues to jump out at me

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from your emails is your lack of

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appreciation for NDE science I mean it's

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not like Evan Alexander is the first to

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report an NDE or study the NDE

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literature

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he's just the first neurosurgeon from

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Harvard Medical School to have one have

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you ever heard of folks like then I sent

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him the links to my interview 164 with

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Jan Holden 119 with dr. pendel Namal 118

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with dr. Jeffery long number 90 with dr.

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penny Sartori and number 64 with dr.

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Peter fennec and I wrapped it up by

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saying you need to get out of the

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atheist bubble you're in and explore the

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considerable research on this amazing

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medical mystery well maybe I was digging

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him a little harder than I thought here

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because here's what he wrote back Alex

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you were either very confused or are

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being deliberately annoying I can

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guarantee I was doing a second it's hard

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to tell by email here's the important

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point he says I am familiar with the NDE

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research but all of it is irrelevant

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here later he says I'm not in an atheist

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bubble I'm the one prominent atheist who

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has publicly argued that SCI research

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has been unfairly stigmatized but the

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way you've treated this issue makes this

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digna perfectly understandable okay a

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couple things jump out first this

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statement I'm familiar with the

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near-death experience literature but all

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of it is irrelevant here again this is

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almost too goofy to respond to all the

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in de literature is irrelevant to

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understanding dr. Alexander's case this

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is why the logic is this guy in some

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debate can you imagine someone trying to

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defend that statement it's silly and the

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other thing that jumps out is again he's

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equated NDE research with SCI research

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so if you thought it was a mistake the

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first time

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rest assured dr. Sam Harris really

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doesn't seem to know the difference okay

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here's what I wrote back to him Sam

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you say you're familiar with the NDE

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literature how so what have you

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any of the researchers I cited have you

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ever cited any NDE studies in your

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writing I don't think so regarding

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relevance even a rudimentary

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understanding of the body of

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peer-reviewed NDE research should give

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you an appreciation for the larger

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neurological questions surrounding NDEs

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for example how can experiencers with a

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wide variety of medical conditions and

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even those who experience no medical

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trauma have similar hyper lucid

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transformative experiences doctor

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Alexander's account must be understood

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within the context of this work NDEs are

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one of the greatest medical mysteries of

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our time the medical nature of the

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mystery is one of the reasons dr.

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Alexander is in a better position to

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speak authoritative lis about what might

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be going on unless I said

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parenthetically you think your

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background Trump's his in this area it

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would serve you well to engage in the

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mystery rather than churn out more of

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the same a theistic party line talking

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points for your adoring fans well as you

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might expect this is getting pretty

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close to the end of this email exchange

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he did fire me back this nice email

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though Alex so you're accusing me of

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lying again

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now I understand you're actually uh I'm

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done Sam well well dr. Harris I guess

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it's my fault for asking you to back up

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your claim for asking you to show where

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you've ever cited any NDE research not

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SCI research mind you because that's

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something different so let me help you

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long here let me do a little google

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search through your blog Sam Harris org

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and we'll search through that site your

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blog your essays everything you've

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published and let's search for pin Van

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LOM Oh nope the only hit we have are

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from some some other people have posted

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okay so let's look

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geoffery long no nothing

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how about Jan Holden let's try for a sin

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no none of those either hmm fact is I

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couldn't find a single reference to any

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published in de research in any of Sam's

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writings but I guess we should just take

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his word for it he is dr. Sam Harris we

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shouldn't challenge him should we we

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shouldn't engage in critical thinking so

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if he says he's familiar with the ND

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literature I'm sure he is he probably

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read Vick Stenger's book or maybe

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something by Michael Shermer okay onto

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another email exchange this one much

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more pleasant and that is the one that I

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had with dr. Jan Holden from the

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University of North Texas who of course

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is one of the co editors along with

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Bruce Grayson of the handbook of

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near-death experiences and I sent Jan a

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link to episode 190 where we talked

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about dr. Vick Stenger's book and his

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quotations and citations of Jan Holden's

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work so I'm not going to read you her

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entire response into this podcast but I

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do encourage you to look at it I'm gonna

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post it there on the website I don't

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think it will come as much of a surprise

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to you that she totally refutes Stingers

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conclusions and really at the end of the

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day the only conclusion you can come to

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is that the guy willfully misrepresented

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her position but you can read that

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yourself and while you're at it

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I'd like you to compare and contrast the

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way she presents the facts the data the

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evidence

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compared to our friend dr. Sam Harris

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and our friend dr. Vick Stenger here is

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a researcher here is someone who is

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engaged in the data and whether you like

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the data or not I think you have to

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appreciate that you're being given

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scientific evidence and not a bunch of

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chest-thumping bravado so that wraps up

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this little follow-up I wanted to do I

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have to tell you we are moving off of

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this top

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and some of you will be very glad other

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of you maybe not we'll come back and

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touch on near-death experience in the

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future but there's many many other areas

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to talk about and and dive into in the

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way that we like to do them on this show

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so let me wrap up by inviting you to

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join me in dialogue about this episode

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if you think I'm off here if you think

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sam harris is right or if you think

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Janne Holden is wrong whatever we'd love

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to hear your opinion would love to have

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you share that opinion as long as you do

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it in a civil way that's attempting to

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engage in a real dialogue we'd love to

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hear from you the place to do that is

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either on this skeptical website at sk

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EPT Iko calm or the sceptical forum

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which you can get to from the website as

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well while you're at the web site you

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can of course check out all of our

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almost 200 previous shows and of course

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find the link to send me an email or

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Facebook well that's gonna do it for

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this episode of skeptic Oh several good

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episodes in the hopper just ready to get

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out there as soon as I can stay with me